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Author Topic: I quit!!  (Read 4559 times)
Eskielvr
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« on: October 09, 2004, 09:00:10 AM »

Sometimes I just can't help myself than to look in the paper at some of these irresponsible breeders listing pets for sale in classifieds. Last night I was looking through and saw a lady listing a female Eskie for sale, along with several other adult breeds. I was concerned for the Eskie as she would probably be used as breeding stock by someone else for irresponsible reasons.   I also saw someone had 22 Lab pups for sale and I thought holy cow!

I went on the breeder's list to ask if there was a way I could get someone, maybe from AKC, to do an investigation to make sure these weren't puppymillers, and the replies I got were "what's wrong with that?" and made me feel as if I were stupid.

 I know that most people who advertise in the paper don't care a lick about where their dogs will end up, sell on a first come first serve basis, and probably know very little about dogs, let alone  quality and health testing of parents, etc.

Everytime I try to help an animal I get screwed. I've had it and I'm done!  
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2004, 09:17:10 AM »

Frustrating isn't it!  There will always be good people and bad people out there.  I try to take it one day at a time and help out where I can.  If I tried saving every single animal out there it would be BEYOND a full time job.
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eskieagilitygal
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2004, 09:58:04 AM »

Correct... you can not save them all or can you expect others to hold the same attitudes or beliefs that you do.   As long as the animals are housed, fed and appear to be in good health the SPCA or local shelters can not do a thing.... shooot... they put down 100's of 1,000's of homeless animals daily (eskie's included in that number).    I'm not being hard here.. just realistic.

As far as the AKC.  I don't believe they have investigative authority to deem "Good" or "Bad" breeders.   They can set guidlelines for people to go by, who are looking for a pet and refer breeders through breed clubs, etc., but they don't have the resources to inspect or investigate individual breeding programs, that is regulated through individual state, cities, counties, etc.

My personal opinion is that this issues can only stop through education.   Breed Education, so people don't purchase breeds that don't fit witin their life style. Training Education, so people don't throw their puppies away at the first sign of training difficulty.  Spay/Nueter Education, so unwanted/hard to place litters are not born.  Care/Health Education, so pups/kittens are cared for properly.

Yes... It's a Shame... a Crying Shame what some back yard breeders do for profit.  But... if there were not a demand for it, they would not be in business.  

I have come to learn that I am better off attacking the issue from an education stand point.  Every class I teach, I educate.  Every person I hear wanting to get a puppy or kitten in my circle, I ask if I can assist them in the search.   I explain why and advise them not to go to back yard breeders, etc.   If they are jsut looking for a pet (All American), then I send them to the local shelter.. not the paper, etc.... If they are looking for a specific breed, I'll hook them up with the breed club or local breed resource.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 10:01:05 AM by eskiagilitygal » Logged

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Eskielvr
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2004, 05:14:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by eskiagilitygal

As far as the AKC.  I don't believe they have investigative authority to deem "Good" or "Bad" breeders.   They can set guidlelines for people to go by, who are looking for a pet and refer breeders through breed clubs, etc., but they don't have the resources to inspect or investigate individual breeding programs, that is regulated through individual state, cities, counties, etc.



Oh yes they do! They have inspected many breeders throught the year. Just ask some of the Eskie breeders on the yahoogroups list who had a surprise inspection!
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Melissa &
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Eskielvr
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2004, 05:20:41 PM »

Anyway, I was wanting to find out if there's a group that could go look into the situation to make sure it wasn't a puppymill, and if it was then it would be known and could be shut down.

Trying to educate people like these is like trying to have a conversation with a blank wall.  While education is good as a preventative method for future animals, in the mean time you still have these guys. Anyway, I really don't care anymore because I'm done, period.
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Melissa &
Meli VC CD AX AXJ OAC NJC CGC TDI
Amadeus NA NAJ NJC CGC TDI
Maggie (Lakewood's Magpie) CGC TDI *New!*

Tristen OAP AJP NAC-V CGC TDI  1993 - 08/19/11
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2004, 06:09:23 PM »

You can try calling your local Humane Society.  I don't know a lot about the AKC because I'm Canadian, but it's our SPCA's here that investigate puppy mills and such.  Our CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) has nothing to do with that, they just do registrations as far as I know.
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eskieagilitygal
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2004, 06:17:37 PM »

I think it's are SPCA that investigate Puppy Mills here as well.  But, as I mentioned... if the dogs are being fed, have decent housing (protected from the elements and not too cramed), appear to be in good health with no injuries or open wounds,  then they most likely won't do anything.    Unless there is a city or county ordiance that limits the amount of pets you can house/breed, etc... then they are not breaking the law.   Most Puppy Mills are in the Country or rural areas where they will only require a Kennel License, if that, to operate.


Quote
Anyway, I really don't care anymore because I'm done, period.


Melisa... you do care, don't kid yourself or you would not be so upset.   You did your part... you have three beautiful furbabies that you rescued and I'm sure you'll have more in the future that you'll rescue.  Three lives saved and in a good home.   That's a lot!!!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 06:22:09 PM by eskiagilitygal » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2004, 06:37:14 PM »

First I do not know of any group that investigates people who have ads in newspapers.

Ah, I am wrong! Montgomery County MD did at one time.  They passed a breeding restriction where a breeder had to get a permit to breed [cost money]. They patrolled the ads to see who they could fine!  I think they gave it up.

Back in my Pom days, I always ran ads in the paper.  This was way before breed clubs had referrals. How else could you tell people you had pups?  People in my kennel club and obedience club already had their breeds.  They didn't need a Pom.  I think in 30 years I only had a handful of breeders of other dogs send someone to me. And some of those were for Pekingese and Paps!

The AKC does investigate some breeders who breed more then a certain number of litters per year.  I can't remember the exact number, but it might be 7 or 8.  And yes, it is a surprise.

They look for permanent identification of the dogs they find (tatoo or microchip) and all the paperwork.

When I moved deeper into VA, there was no rural mailbox where I lived. All residents needed to have a post office box.  I was surprised one day to get a notice from the AKC.   They were upset with me as they pulled a surprise visit on my mailbox and couldn't find any dogs.   [Yeah, that's what the letter said!!!]

So I called them and invited them out. Gave good directions too.  3rd driveway past the oak tree, turn left till the fork and then the house with the elms.

Luckily a day I was off, this car pulls into my yard.  Out with me to see who it is comes Gena (eskie), Rascal (orange 3 pound male Pom) and  Smouch ( black and tan 5.5 pound female Pom). The guy though is looking at my license plate.  He has a puzzled expression on his face. He ducks back into his car for a moment.

When he comes out he says, Mary, did Hugs get his UD?

This therefore is the AKC investigater.

As it turns out, he was at Huggy's 3rd leg for his CD back in 81. He had been training with one of my obedience Pom friends, whose name, interestingly is Tammy.  On that day Hugs took 1st in novice a, a schip took first in novice b and Tammy with her Pom Levi took HIT out of open a.  

So my inspection went well.  And we had a hearty laugh when he asked how did I tell my 3 dogs apart.  

Oh BTW, my license plate at that time was still POM UD.

Back on topic - it isn't that people run ads in the newspaper or magazine. Its more how they keep their dogs and all else that has already been written.
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2004, 07:02:45 PM »

Question then for you Mary since I really don't know anything about this, the AKC could only really investigate breeders they had on file then right?  Example - If I started breeding but never bothered to register any of my dogs the AKC would have no record of me so they would never investigate? Am I right?  This would leave investigations of this sort up to animal control in that area?

I know here you make complaints to the SPCA, I have no idea how many complaints though it takes before an investigation takes place.  From what I understand about Tundra, there were many complaints and warnings given from our local SPCA before he was taken.  I would be curious to know how many, but I will probably never find out.

It's amazing though when you find out how many rights the owners have and how little rights the poor animals have.

We live in the country and a lot of breeders advertise in the papers here.  I have yet to see someone advertise that they have 22 pups though as that would make me question them.  Where we are there are a lot of backyard breeders as some of the rural areas don't offer a lot of job opportunities and to get a good job can be quite far and thus they turn to breeding to make money.  There are good breeders and there are bad breeders around us, you just have to make sure to research where the dog is coming from.  I can remember going to get Joey, my mom's pom.  He is from an ad in our local paper.  We drove out there (farm), went into the house, they let us meet both parents (dad was skitish but not aggressive and mom was very friendly) let all the pups run around and we generally got a good vibe from everyone on the farm, and there was nothing that seemed hidden.  Joey turned out to be a great dog, he's not registered or anything but wasn't raised in any type of bad environment from what we could see.

So just because pups are in the paper doesn't mean necessarily mean they are running a puppy mill, but if you are questioning something, by all means call your local SPCA to find out what can be done, at least you will learn something non the least Smile
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EskieMa
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2004, 07:39:11 PM »

You are correct in that the AKC can only investigate breeders who are in their files!

 That's the reason why such organizations such as CKC, the Continental Kennel Club have grown up.  People who register with them do not want to go through the strictness of the AKC...or in your case the Canadian Kennel Club.

 The AKC has been trying to bring ethics to dog breeding. Or maybe keep it going.  Rather then the what-you-see-is-what-you-get routine as well as the believe it because I say it routine, we responsible breeders now have to prove it!!!

 I really cannot say how the SPCA works. I know they can give limited amount of space to actual dogs, but how good their investigative reference is, I don't know.  

 In my area the Department of Animal Control has the most investigative and enforcement powers.  This is via towns, cities or counties. They work on complaints like barking dogs, but also observe and enforce what we call the legal limit - the number & type of animals that one has, as well as their condition.    
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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EskieMa
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2004, 07:42:16 PM »

I don't think any body in their right mind would actually put in newspaper print that they have 22 puppies for sale.  

 Not that they didn't, but gee whiz, what is the point of announcing the number?
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2004, 09:06:11 AM »

Here where I am the SPCA and the local animal control work closely together and sometimes all in one building.

And then there are the "private investigators" - when I was collecting money at work for donations for our local SPCA for the walk-a-thon a lady I work closely with didn't realize how into animals I was.  When she found out she told me of her friend that never travels in her car without a muzzle, wire cutters, a leash and a wig.
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2004, 10:17:27 AM »

We bought Little Boy from a back yard breeder, from an ad in the paper.  I had heard about puppy mills, but not about back yard breeders.   He doesn't have papers so I would imagine that the AKC couldn't do anything anyway if there were problems.  At this point, I don't know if there were or not.  It was a nice home, and the facilities were clean.  Both the parents were on site.  But I have no idea if they were brother and sister, or how many litters they produced.

I agree education is the key, but it's like putting a finger in the dam.  Hubby grows and sells bonsai, and we face the same problems.  You don't buy your bonsai at Wal mart or the mall, for similar reasons.  (unsuitable soil, glued on rocks, poor quality plants)  And you can't keep junipers inside (you don't see them growing in tropical climates, they need 4 seasons or will die).   We have material detailing this on the web site (as do other reputable bonsai dealers), and he gets e-mails daily about keeping junipers inside!  And people still buy bonsai at Wal Mart!  Then when it dies, they think it's their fault.

So how do you educate the masses?
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Eskielvr
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2004, 10:51:53 AM »

Yeah but all these papers announce "AKC". The one with the Labs first line said "AKC LABS".   Most people think that the magical three letter word is AKC, and they don't understand that just because they're AKC and have papers doesn't mean that they're good quality.  You can take two good quality dogs, breed them, get papers, then continue breeding them and breeding them and then eventually wind up with generic looking dogs, but are still AKC registered.  Papers are only good for responsible breeders who study pedigrees before making breeding decisions, and showing. They can't guarantee the quality of the dog, that's up to the breeder.

Now Tammy, if Meli was a rescue than how could I have shown her in conformation? Or in Obedience and Agility without an ILP number?  Remember when we talked about the AEDCA VC award that I couldn't get because I don't have her OFA'd or CERF'd, but since yours was fixed and had an ILP number yours could because you didn't need to have that?  lol
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Melissa &
Meli VC CD AX AXJ OAC NJC CGC TDI
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