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Author Topic: Featured Topic: What's wrong with this?  (Read 26383 times)
EskieMa
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« on: June 03, 2009, 11:15:28 AM »

Found under Warranty in a breeder's site.
What is wrong here, if anything?
Would you accept this? Why? Why not?
Would you accept the replacement?

* Breeder offers one year hip guarantee on any puppy found to have moderate or severely affected hip dysplasia.
The following applies:  The puppy must have a new x-ray by your veterinarian to confirm the diagnosis and it must be documented by an official OFA preliminary consultation.

* Upon receipt of a letter to breeder from a reputable veterinarian stating that in his/her opinion this condition is congenital, puppy will be replaced by a puppy of equal value at breeder's convenience.  We reserve the right to have a second opinion from our veterinarian.  We also reserve the right to acquire DNA to determine the dog or puppy as one of our lineages.
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 11:28:04 AM »

You are not to do hips until they are 2 years of age so why would they only give a one year guarantee?  I would not accept this for this reason and accept a replacement - no way - I would not have taken the first one with this condition.
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 11:58:54 AM »

You are not to do hips until they are 2 years of age so why would they only give a one year guarantee? 

You can do a preliminary via OFA, but would the buyer know this? Doubt it.
And further down it says "it must be documented by an official OFA preliminary consultation". So this breeders knows about prelims.
How much does this cost now-a-days?  Prelims.
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 12:56:25 PM »

What I'm picking up on this is they sound like they know they have dysplasia in their lines and they want to scare the puppy buyers into not doing the testing b/c of inconvenience and money. (by making it sound like it is a long and difficult process and throwing out "official consultation" just makes it sound expensive).

The fact that it sounds like they have a vet on their payroll makes me think that anyone that attempts this is just going to be shot down b/c that vet is just going to disagree with you and charge you more.

To me it says run away...and fast!
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 08:54:15 PM »

Crazy, is what it sounds like.  Who, even people who are looking for certain characteristics, would "trade" their dog after a few months or a year???  Sounds like they're counting on someone not wanting to do this?  If I spend money for a dog from a breeder, you better bet I want to know the testing (both hips and eyes) that were done.  Now, if I was getting a rescue, then of course, I'd know that there would be no guarantees.  So, kind of makes me wonder why they even put this on there to begin with?  Can you have recessive genes that don't show up in preliminary testing, but then do show up in the pups?  Is that what they were legally protecting themselves from?  Or does the testing give you 100% accurate results?
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 03:38:11 AM »

So, kind of makes me wonder why they even put this on there to begin with?  Can you have recessive genes that don't show up in preliminary testing, but then do show up in the pups?  Is that what they were legally protecting themselves from?  Or does the testing give you 100% accurate results?

Hip dysplasia is a recessive gene so even if both parents are good, a pup with issues can still pop up. So no, there is no guarantee. In my contract it states that both parents are free from hip dysplasia. Off the top of my head i don't think I say anything about testing on the part of the buyer, but I don't have the contract here.

But my biggest issue with all this is that i assume these people are selling to pet people and how many pet people are going to spend the money to test for hip dysplasia by one year old anyway? I wouldn't. Unless the pup was having problems. And why is a pup having problems under one year old anyway? My Madayja has severe hip dysplasia, the first vet who did her x-rays (which I had done for breeding purposes only, not suspiscions) told me she would be crippled in a couple years it was so bad. She is 8 1/2. no problems. How bad does it have to be for a pup less than a year old to be having issues that a pet household would spend the money on x-rays and such?

As an uneducated puppy buyer i probably would accept this contract. Sounds like they are being responsible. But as me, fairly educated, no, I would not accept this. And they offer a replacement. What happens to the pup you have had for a year who probably has severe issues and will have lifelong medical problems?
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Miracle Eskimos

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 08:47:34 AM »

I really have to get back to my cyno legal class note and translate (and the animal lawyer offered to revise it for me) the adoption contract. He put everything and anything you can think of in there. Mostly to protect the good breeders.
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 01:19:00 AM »

So, kind of makes me wonder why they even put this on there to begin with?  Can you have recessive genes that don't show up in preliminary testing, but then do show up in the pups?  Is that what they were legally protecting themselves from?  Or does the testing give you 100% accurate results?

Hip dysplasia is a recessive gene so even if both parents are good, a pup with issues can still pop up. So no, there is no guarantee. In my contract it states that both parents are free from hip dysplasia. Off the top of my head i don't think I say anything about testing on the part of the buyer, but I don't have the contract here.

But my biggest issue with all this is that i assume these people are selling to pet people and how many pet people are going to spend the money to test for hip dysplasia by one year old anyway? I wouldn't. Unless the pup was having problems. And why is a pup having problems under one year old anyway? My Madayja has severe hip dysplasia, the first vet who did her x-rays (which I had done for breeding purposes only, not suspiscions) told me she would be crippled in a couple years it was so bad. She is 8 1/2. no problems. How bad does it have to be for a pup less than a year old to be having issues that a pet household would spend the money on x-rays and such?

As an uneducated puppy buyer i probably would accept this contract. Sounds like they are being responsible. But as me, fairly educated, no, I would not accept this. And they offer a replacement. What happens to the pup you have had for a year who probably has severe issues and will have lifelong medical problems?

Hip Dysplasia is a polygenic trait which can be influenced by environmental factors.  Even an excellent to an excellent breeding can produce a dysplastic puppy.  Check out the OFA's publicationhttp://offa.org/monograph2006web.pdf

This publication is very informative and gives mating probability of actual aplications in 2006. 
Prelims can be taken as young as 4months old and can be a great tool in helping breeders determine whether a dog stays in a breeding/show placement.  Many breeders have some sort of replacement clause in their contract especially when it comes to show "potential" as it's difficult for a breeder to guarantee show potential until the dog has matured into adulthood.  You are right most people will not want to trade their dog for another.....but others who are in a very serious breeding and show program know that as much as we'd love to keep them all, we can only keep the very best.  Not only in conformation but also when it comes to health.  Imagine spending several thousand dollars finishing a dog only to find out that he or she is dysplastic at the age of 2yo.  Prelims can save a ton of money and heartbreak for the breeder after putting their heart and soul into working towards those titles.

As for this character, I think most of us could guess where this contract was found.  I know I read it on their website after they were flagged as shady on this very board.  My thoughts are they have been cornered about health testing so much by informed buyers and reputable breeders, that they decided to make an attempt at sounding like they are working with a vet within regards to hip dysplasia.  What it comes down to is that you can search whether a dog has an OFA #.
http://offa.org/ Yes, the general puppy buyer may not be aware.  I try to educate anyone that comes to me that they can ask to see their OFA certificate as well as their Optigen letters.  Many dogs still in many breeding programs across the country could have been part of either two studies which helped identify the marker for PRA.  Breeders discovered whether their dogs were clear, a carrier or affected with PRA.  Cornell and Texas A & M.  Breeders who own those dogs may not necessarily have anything in writing with regards to PRA.

Puppy buyers are becoming more educated every day in part by forums such as this and breeders willing to take the time to talk with them about health concerns even if they don't end up buying a puppy.
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Diane Cowles
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 10:29:48 AM »

In Tristen's case, his hip dysplasia is age related. So it's not always a genetic cause, either.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 11:41:42 AM »

In Tristen's case, his hip dysplasia is age related. So it's not always a genetic cause, either.

Hummm. Not to sure about not being genetics. As far as I was always told and confirmed in my hip dysplasia cyno class, it is always genetic. It may skip generations but it remains genetics.

http://forum.eskie.net/index.php/topic,10990.0.html

Some factors though may influence it but if you say Tristen has HD, he has the gene(s) that created it.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 03:19:25 PM »

from the OFA 2006 publication....
Quote
Hip dysplasia is currently accepted to be an inherited disease
caused by the interaction of many genes (polygenic). In animals
that are genetically predisposed, there are unknown complex
interactions of genes with the environment that bring about the
degree of phenotypic expression (mild, moderate, or severely hip
dysplasia) of these genes within an individual.
At this time, selectively breeding for normal hips is the only
means to reduce the genetic frequency of HD.
Radiography is currently the accepted means for evaluating the
hip status and it is well documented that the frequency of HD can
be signifi cantly reduced using the standard hip extended view.
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 10:17:35 AM »

Well my vet said his was solely age related, from normal wear and tear over the years. It didn't even start until he was 13 or so. Perhaps with him being a breed more prone to it, then in that case it's hereditary, but not directly related to him. Take into consideration the following factors:

1. He was a farm dog who'd run and roam miles on end every day for his first 7 years before I got him. Following that I did Agility with him until he was 11.

2. He became overweight sometime after I took him.

3. Bone, joint capsule, and cartilage changes over the years, just as in humans, and can also cause it, esp when you factor in the first two ingredients above and add them together.



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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 10:46:32 AM »


3. Bone, joint capsule, and cartilage changes over the years, just as in humans, and can also cause it, esp when you factor in the first two ingredients above and add them together.

Yes, those changes DO change with age and activity, but NOT the same as in HD.  Clsoely, yes, but not the same. 

We will not change your mind, Melissa and we are not here to do that. We are here to help other people learn.
Your mis-statements are your belief. Not necessarily true, but they are yours.  Of course, I am sure it is IMPOSSIBLE that in that conversation with your vet, which was how many years ago, you may have missed one word. Could it have been "like" HD.

No response is necessary. This has really gone off the posted topic.
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2009, 10:57:31 AM »

  Who, even people who are looking for certain characteristics, would "trade" their dog after a few months or a year???  Sounds like they're counting on someone not wanting to do this? 

In Poms, the color wolf sable, is very desirable and RARE
A guy in the Baltimore area had in his contract and also ads, that he guaranteed his pup's as wolf sable for a year. Knowing that most orange sable pups are born wolf sable, I called and asked him.  He said no one had ever returned a pup to him for that reason. The new owners were too bonded to it and color by then was not a factor. Smile 
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 12:07:09 PM »

That's interesting about the Pom.
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2009, 08:14:56 PM »

So, kind of makes me wonder why they even put this on there to begin with?  Can you have recessive genes that don't show up in preliminary testing, but then do show up in the pups?  Is that what they were legally protecting themselves from?  Or does the testing give you 100% accurate results?

Hip dysplasia is a recessive gene so even if both parents are good, a pup with issues can still pop up. So no, there is no guarantee. In my contract it states that both parents are free from hip dysplasia. Off the top of my head i don't think I say anything about testing on the part of the buyer, but I don't have the contract here.

But my biggest issue with all this is that i assume these people are selling to pet people and how many pet people are going to spend the money to test for hip dysplasia by one year old anyway? I wouldn't. Unless the pup was having problems. And why is a pup having problems under one year old anyway? My Madayja has severe hip dysplasia, the first vet who did her x-rays (which I had done for breeding purposes only, not suspiscions) told me she would be crippled in a couple years it was so bad. She is 8 1/2. no problems. How bad does it have to be for a pup less than a year old to be having issues that a pet household would spend the money on x-rays and such?

As an uneducated puppy buyer i probably would accept this contract. Sounds like they are being responsible. But as me, fairly educated, no, I would not accept this. And they offer a replacement. What happens to the pup you have had for a year who probably has severe issues and will have lifelong medical problems?

Hip Dysplasia is a polygenic trait which can be influenced by environmental factors.  Even an excellent to an excellent breeding can produce a dysplastic puppy.  Check out the OFA's publicationhttp://offa.org/monograph2006web.pdf

This publication is very informative and gives mating probability of actual aplications in 2006. 
Prelims can be taken as young as 4months old and can be a great tool in helping breeders determine whether a dog stays in a breeding/show placement.  Many breeders have some sort of replacement clause in their contract especially when it comes to show "potential" as it's difficult for a breeder to guarantee show potential until the dog has matured into adulthood.  You are right most people will not want to trade their dog for another.....but others who are in a very serious breeding and show program know that as much as we'd love to keep them all, we can only keep the very best.  Not only in conformation but also when it comes to health.  Imagine spending several thousand dollars finishing a dog only to find out that he or she is dysplastic at the age of 2yo.  Prelims can save a ton of money and heartbreak for the breeder after putting their heart and soul into working towards those titles.

As for this character, I think most of us could guess where this contract was found.  I know I read it on their website after they were flagged as shady on this very board.  My thoughts are they have been cornered about health testing so much by informed buyers and reputable breeders, that they decided to make an attempt at sounding like they are working with a vet within regards to hip dysplasia.  What it comes down to is that you can search whether a dog has an OFA #.
http://offa.org/ Yes, the general puppy buyer may not be aware.  I try to educate anyone that comes to me that they can ask to see their OFA certificate as well as their Optigen letters.  Many dogs still in many breeding programs across the country could have been part of either two studies which helped identify the marker for PRA.  Breeders discovered whether their dogs were clear, a carrier or affected with PRA.  Cornell and Texas A & M.  Breeders who own those dogs may not necessarily have anything in writing with regards to PRA.

Puppy buyers are becoming more educated every day in part by forums such as this and breeders willing to take the time to talk with them about health concerns even if they don't end up buying a puppy.

Thanks for answering my question about recessive genes, everyone.  This has been a really interesting topic to read.  I just checked out the OFFA website - that's a neat resource. 

I like the Pom story - that no one had returned a puppy because of color.  Kind of restores faith in humanity (or speaks to this breeder's good selection process when finding homes for puppies).
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Sarah

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2009, 08:40:29 PM »

You are not to do hips until they are 2 years of age so why would they only give a one year guarantee? 

You can do a preliminary via OFA, but would the buyer know this? Doubt it.
And further down it says "it must be documented by an official OFA preliminary consultation". So this breeders knows about prelims.
How much does this cost now-a-days?  Prelims.


the pricey part is not in the OFA application but in the radiography and anesthesia.  Prelim hip only to OFA is $30 and after 24mo is $35.  Most of the time when I get our hips done, it is costing me about $250 a pop.  This is for a reversable sedative.  Granted it's going to vary depending on type of anesthesia used and how many films the vet had to take.
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Diane Cowles
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 08:49:53 PM »

But Pennhip can be done as early as 16 weeks.

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip

Quote
PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. It has great potential to lower the frequency of CHD when used as a selection criterion.

As far as I was taught, at Pennhip, results are more accurate too because of the way the testing is done. But it is more expensive too and ortho that can do it are not as many as for OFA. What we were told in class was that if you want to do it all the way, the best would be the OFA and PennHip. Many dogs will pass OFA but would fail with PennHip.
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2009, 09:42:12 AM »

  Who, even people who are looking for certain characteristics, would "trade" their dog after a few months or a year???  Sounds like they're counting on someone not wanting to do this? 

In Poms, the color wolf sable, is very desirable and RARE
A guy in the Baltimore area had in his contract and also ads, that he guaranteed his pup's as wolf sable for a year. Knowing that most orange sable pups are born wolf sable, I called and asked him.  He said no one had ever returned a pup to him for that reason. The new owners were too bonded to it and color by then was not a factor. Smile 

i am sure that this is what the contrat writer/breeder is banking on.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 09:46:23 AM »

That all seems pretty similar to the statements you find on PuppyFind or similar sites - one year guarantee against genetic defects....  It sounds good to pet buyers and the seller knows that they will never follow up on it, not within a year anyway.  Perhaps in 5 or 7 when they start to have problems.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 03:05:12 PM »

That all seems pretty similar to the statements you find on PuppyFind or similar sites - one year guarantee against genetic defects....  It sounds good to pet buyers and the seller knows that they will never follow up on it, not within a year anyway.  Perhaps in 5 or 7 when they start to have problems.
emm hmm, The were on puppy find & /or Next day pets.com , don't remeber which . So Your right ! 

My question would be,  how many years do you give your puppy families for OFA gaurantee's/ results ? One breeder gave me 2 years at first, then she increased it to 3 years. The other gave me 3 years as well.  Doe's anyone ever gaurantee more ?

Yes , it seems mean that someone would give the puppy back to the breeder, if there was a problem. But honestly is it sometimes the best choice, and I am asking the Breeders/members here...
  if you got a pup that turned out to have health problems or did not meet the contracts you both had agreed on, would you Returned the pup?

Because if you are a breeder/handler/kennel , you got the dog for that reason, and business is business { well I hope you know what I mean, not trying to sound cold }, would you keep the pup as pet only, then accept the replacement , couldn't that replacement have the "same" problem ? This is probably a touchy subject, but if you have a program already and this dog does not suit your programs and you have several dogs as it is, and you do Love them ALL, would you keep it forever  adding cost to your kennel, yet likely to add an additional because of how that one turned out? Or would you keep him/her just until you find a nice pet home or simply give it back to original breeder ?

I don't mean to go OT here, but this is a pretty good question too. Or was there already a topic about this exact thing already?
Thanks.

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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 03:36:45 PM »

But honestly is it sometimes the best choice, and I am asking the Breeders/members here...
  if you got a pup that turned out to have health problems or did not meet the contracts you both had agreed on, would you Returned the pup?

I will take any pup back at any time for any reason. In fact, i insist that the pup come back to me rather than go anywhere else. There are only a few reasons and in a limited time for which i will replace the pup, based on my contract.

Because if you are a breeder/handler/kennel , you got the dog for that reason, and business is business { well I hope you know what I mean, not trying to sound cold }, would you keep the pup as pet only, then accept the replacement , couldn't that replacement have the "same" problem ? This is probably a touchy subject, but if you have a program already and this dog does not suit your programs and you have several dogs as it is, and you do Love them ALL, would you keep it forever  adding cost to your kennel, yet likely to add an additional because of how that one turned out? Or would you keep him/her just until you find a nice pet home or simply give it back to original breeder ?

While this is not the smart answer, I keep them. I shouldn't b/c I now have 11 dogs but I lead with my heart and not my head.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2009, 08:15:53 PM »

I don't know the first thing about breeding but common sense tells me that hip problems wouldn't show up until after they are a year old.  Also, if these people are so willing to spend money on a second opinion AND DNA tests then why didn't they just spend money to have genetic tests so that his wouldn't be such an issue in their breeding program.  Lastly, one of the first things I thought when I read this was how many times was this an issue for these people that they felt they needed to state this in a warranty...are hip problems something previous buyers have experienced so much with these people they felt compelled to put this warranty up on their site?  Odd.
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2009, 09:31:23 AM »

Hip Dysplasi is not determined by a genetic test.  It is a polygenic disease influenced by several genes.  A breeders best bet is to xray their animals and use that information to chose potential breedings to minimize the risk in creating HD.  There are NO guarantees.  Even breeding two dogs with excellent hips can produce a displastic puppies.  The aspect is reducing the risk.
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