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Author Topic: poor quality becouse of breeding for dollars  (Read 2253 times)
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« on: August 12, 2003, 07:17:23 AM »

I got an almost year old eskie for my mom becouse of their positive traits as a pet.   I would like for her to have 1 litter of pups.  She was breed by someone was doing it for the extra cash.  she is not show quality by any means, just registerd,with a hart of gold.    How do I go about trying to find a good sire to help bring back the quality in her line when chances are her pups would only be great pets and not show dogs?  
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2003, 07:50:27 AM »

How do I go about trying to find a good sire to help bring back the quality in her line ...

First - you must have a copy of her pedigree.

Next - research all the relatives. Besides the parents, include all previous litters that either the mom or dad have produced. Then you do the same for the grandparents, great-grandparents - everyone that is on the pedigree. Besides looking for all those qualities that you admire in her, remember to look at their health. Did they go blind? If so at what age?  Eskie suffer from something called PRA which can cause an eskie to loss their sight either early on - around age 2 or 3 - or a bit later - after age 6.  Did their owners have excessive vet bills? For what? Do any of them have problems walking? Was this because of hip dysplasia? Another problem that is carried in some eskies genetically.

Talking to all these owners may help you find a sire. Then you need to go and do the same research on the sire.

Let's say you do not have a copy of her pedigree. Then you need to find another eskie whose owners will let him breed your girl.  Maybe down the street or in the next county. Maybe you found him by visiting websites of other eskie owners. You still have to let her go visit him for as many days as it takes to breed. Possibly a week. Then you have all the emotions and questions of whether the breeding took.  

The real question you need to answer is that is all this worth it?  Besides possibly risking her life - esp when she is delivering pups(depending on the area you live have $500 to $1000 in the bank for an emergency c-section) - do you want to be involved in all that this entails?  Producing puppies that might later become blind or because of whatever their owners did to them or didn't do correctly, they wind up in shelters or rescues?   Give it some thought.

Mary in the Northern Neck of VA

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Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2003, 01:26:47 AM »

Hi There:

First off, you mentioned your girl having a heart of gold, and that is a super thing. Many eskies are very loving dogs, but it always nice to know of more than are so darn wonderful(in heart if not in "show" aspects).

It is also natural to think of wanting to see your lovable girl have a litter of pups to continue her heritage, but you do need to ask some questions of yourself before just jumping in and breeding her.

Generally speaking, most "responsible breeders" aim only to improve(or continue quality in) the breed lines. In otherwords, they breed "good" to "good" and not "good" to "poor". Breeding to "poor" will dilute and/or deprove the lines rather than improving them. Even if not immediately, down the line little "problems" will show up. Even in "good" to "good" bad things can show up as certain genes can be "hidden" (recessives) for many generations, but then all the sudden with just the right combination here it shows up again. There is also a "chance" that breeding a "poor" quality dog to better quality will help improve HER lines or even produce some wonderful pups, but the BIG concern is that you DO still have some "lesser" qualities that you KNOW are being passed on...even if not in dominant respects, but in hidden(recessive) respects.

The reality is that breeding a "known" poorer quality dog to ANYTHING(even a better quality dog) is knowingly passing on "poor genes" so to speak. Yes, eventually(after many many generations of working hard at quality breedings), one might be able to filter out much of the lesser qualities and be a better line from what it descended from. BUT.....that is still chance, and not a given, plus it's work and there is a FAR greater likelihood of lesser quality offspring from such unions. The PRA and such problems Mary mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg. Unless a person really is ready to deal with all these issues, it's often better to not get into it as there is always going to be heartbreak at some point, particularly when dealing with "known" lesser quality to begin with.

The "ideal" is to search out BOTH a quality dam AND sire and breed them together. Usually a person will start with one, and have a breeding with another quality dog(dam/sire, depending on the one they have), and start "building their lines" from there. Additionally, new breeders often don't know what they're really aiming for in particular......sure they want better quality dogs, but aren't experienced in knowing how to get those results until they really are involved for a number of years. Some people who have been breeding for 20-40 years have a better sense of what they're looking for than someone who's just starting out, and so can even pick initial breeding stock more keenly than a novice.

It is NOT easy if one really wants to do a "quality" job, and getting to know breeders is the best bet to finding quality dogs. Going to shows or searching the internet or other "resources" are ways to find the right people(and their dogs). Though, the best of these relationships between breeders also develop over years as well. So, a novice isn't going to jump right in and know it all. They might luck out on a particular breeding, but more often than not, they don't, and only "time and experience" gives the best results for breedings over the long haul.

What I think you need to think about is whether you want to willingly breed a dog that you "know" isn't from the best lines as is. Even to a "quality" dog, such that you would hope to get a better quality offspring from. It isn't a "given" and is far more likely going to result in mediocre to disappointing results(at least in "breed quality" respects). Sure, the offspring would likely make good pets, but still, wouldn't it be better to breed two "good" quality dogs and get results from that instead, and leave the lesser quality just for pets?

I once read a recommendation to a beginning breeder to "breed the best, cull the rest". Meaning to continue the "quality" dogs, but to leave the rest for pets only and not to continue propogating the (lesser) lines. Afterall, you yourself noted that the breeder of your girl seemed to be in for the money and not the quality of the dog. Why continue THOSE genes when you know they're not the best? Though I'm not going to do so, I do know some people who would argue adamantly that such breeding is like "contaminating" the breed and breeding stock out there. It's not that your dog is a bad dog, just that maybe she isn't a prime candidate to continue passing on the genes she's carrying. Afterall....if her offspring were also bred with such perspective and so on for many generations, you'd get exactly what you've got....a "lesser quality" dog that is really just a pet, albeit a wonderful pet.

Bear in mind that even "mutts" (mixed breeds) can make wonderful pets, and many also have hearts of gold, but it does not mean it's "best" to breed them. Sometimes, the "best" thing to do is NOT to breed a dog. Particularly if one knows that "lesser" genes are going to be passed on.

I know this isn't probably what you wanted to hear, but I do hope you'll give this issue some thought before going forth with a breeding. If you do go ahead, do find some good breeders to talk to and try to find a good dog to breed to if you do go that route. Passing on "lesser" genes is also asking for more likelihood of health issues that can be costly and heartbreaking down the line....even if not for you, maybe for the pup's owners who end up with them. Again, it goes back to aiming to breed "good to good" rather than "good to poor" for less "problematic" results now and down the line. So, do take all this into consideration, and try to get to know a decent breeder or two before going ahead with a breeding. Even if they don't have a sire for you, the advice and insight they can share with you can be far more valuable than what any of us can say here on the forums.

Do take care.....
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 01:27:18 AM by Michael » Logged


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