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Author Topic: What breeders do  (Read 3847 times)
EskieMa
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« on: June 16, 2004, 08:37:19 AM »

Wokajod asked what do breeders breed for.   There is a current discussion going on that I will replicate some posts here.  This is the beginning post.   Don't worry. I will not reach 1000 posts by these. Wink              Mary  
(btw - with permission)      

"Things have been quiet lately, so I thought I would start up some conversation. Over the last few years we have a number of people that have come into the breed. I believe that education about the Eskie as to where the breed was 20 years ago, what we wanted to accomplish, where the breed is today, and very importantly, where the breed is taken now is extremely important..

 I have heard a few people who have been into Eskies for a couple of years (1 to 5 years) each say something different as to what the breed should be. Granted, everyone has there personal likes and dislikes, but we all should be breeding for the same characteristics. We do not want to loose the very essence of our breed, and wind up with a generic white dog. We want to preserve what is important within our breed, that what makes an Eskie different than any other breed, we want to improve (not change) on the traits that would make our Eskie closer to the ideal, and we want to eliminate those traits that takes us farther away from our ideal dog. We all should be working towards the same goal, not in different directions..
 
So, what is it that makes our breed different than any other breed? What is the essence of the breed? What are the traits that you feel should be preserved, what traits need to be improved on, and which traits should we breed away from?
 
 
OK, I start,...when I think of an American Eskimo Dog, I think of a medium to small Nordic dog, that is white, or white with biscuit. It has black nose, lips, and eye rims. The dog is balanced, strong, and powerful. In moving the dog shows good reach in the forequarter matched with a strong driving rear. The drive from the rear comes from the powerful loins. The dog carries a thick double coat, that stands off. It is a weather resistant coat that has enough texture to protect the dog from adverse weather. The head is Nordic with the eyes symmetrical in the head and not oblique. The eyes are not too large, but fit to the size of the head. The dog is a happy outgoing dog, but protective of his/her home and what he/she believes belongs to their master. Most have a natural herding instinct which is readily distinguishable by the dog's willingness to give chase. The dog is an intelligent, thinking breed, that is easily trained. The dog is agile, and can change directions remarkably quick.
What has the breed been bred and used for? A number of things. The American Eskimo Dog has always been a multi purpose working dog, irreverent to its size. They have been used as watch dogs of the farm, this included livestock. They have also been used in herding and driving. Because of their willingness to learn, quickness, and agility, they have also been used in the past in circuses.They are excellent therapy dogs. Because of its trainability and willingness to please it can be used as a multi purpose dog. Like other Nordic breeds it is a primitive breed, with its pack instinct strong, along with heightened breeding, whelping, and mothering instincts.
Now,....our task, as breeders and keepers of this breed is to keep the traits that make this breed what it is,...its essence, improve on the traits that will make it fall short of its ideal, and breed away from the traits that move it away from what it is.
 
Diana Allen"


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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2004, 08:44:06 AM »

response:

"So, I agree we need to keep the essence of the Eskie. In addition to
your comments I think the Eskie should be a sturdy and durable dog.
He should be highly energetic and self motivated and play well with
other dogs, especially his "pack" if the owner has more than one
(which is likely Smile ). And he should be a watch dog. But I think we
need to breed away from the traits that are often found in pet store
Eskies. Slightly built, neurotic, overly protective of their owner,
snippy, a one person dog that won't accept other family members,
excessively barky. Many people, including my vet before she met my
dogs, have a negative view of the Eskie and that is due to the 'pet
store' temperament of dogs they have known. So for me temperament is
of primary consideration when I choose to breed. The Eskie can still
be an Eskie and a good watch dog, yet be happy and friendly to man
and beast."
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


My alter ego, my heart
Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2004, 08:49:34 AM »

very, very long, but interesting:

"First, it has taken me several hours to write this… and with this said…

Well, Diana, I have to agree with you on this… I am so glad that you mentioned herding!  As you know, I own Sierra’s Aleutian Eyes aka Shemya… and this little bitch is an excellent herder!  I think eskies are very clown-like too and extremely agile… I probably shouldn’t admit this, but two weeks prior to whelping her litter last year I found her on my kitchen island!  I have to this day been unable to figure out how she did this little feat.

Now for my humble opinion…

Now as far as the look… My husband would differ with the current trend of the look of the American Eskimo… He has admitted to me many times that he prefers what we are now calling “the old style” aka the fox-like face, the look of the eskie (aka spitz) that his German grandmother had in the early 1960’s.  According to my husband, who doesn’t know much about the breed at all just because he chooses to keep it that way, we have to be very careful with the look of our breed…  He has been on the internet and compared images of American Eskimos and Samoyeds… he recently visited a web site where the breeder has Samoyeds and Eskies; he took a look at the two breeds could see a trend of the eskie turning into a mini Samoyed…  

 

I was at a three-day dog show this weekend… lots of people there… people were looking at my special and my puppy bitch… they just looked… I could see the wheels turning… one woman said, “that’s not a Samoyed is it?”  I told her that they were American Eskimos… and pointed to a group of Samoyeds that were crated about 30 feet away from me… “Yes, now I can see that your dogs aren’t Samoyeds…” she then asked me questions about the breed… and my usual spiel is that only thing that Samoyeds and eskies share are that 1. they are white; 2. they have pointed/erect ears 3. carry their tails over their back which puts them in the Spitz type category and of course they have four legs and bark, she laughed at that… the Samoyed is Russian and the American Eskimo is descended from the German Spitz… I freely admit that the eskie is descended from the German Spitz and go on to say that an American Eskimo bitch was taken by a breeder to Germany about two of years ago to help bolster up the white Giant German Spitz breed; that this same puppy took a win at the Dortmund World Dog Show… then of course that starts another different conversation… temperament… People walk by and if they don’t say my dogs are Samoyeds they say, “Oh that’s a white spitz” and start walking away… I try and “lasso” them over to say hello and pet the dogs… they are timid at first, but when they see my dogs wiggling on the table to the point where they are shaking the table because they are so happy to say hello, these people end up walking away saying that the ones they have come in contact with have been mean and nasty, but are amazed that these dogs are so friendly…

 

As breeders/owners/exhibitors we also need to educate our judges and well as the public… I had a judge this weekend tell me that her brother has had an American Eskimo for many years and that his doesn’t compare to what our breed is like now… We didn’t have a time to chat about temperament, but I am sure that the temperament was different too…

 

Another judge, a well-respected one here in the Northeast who is now working at AKC in North Carolina, has mentioned to me that we should be very careful when we breed… he was of the opinion that Eskies are suppose to look like Eskies, not Samoyed bitches and this was an unsolicited opinion…

 

We have all been to dog shows and see items for sale that people are telling us that look like eskies…  last summer I had two large round magnets made with my kennel name.  They wanted to put an image of what they called an American Eskimo… It looked like a Samoyed and I told them so, then there was an option to use a Kees… I didn’t like that either… Sooo I went home and cleaned up the UKC National’s logo which I had on my computer as this to me is what an eskie should look like… the eskie in this drawing doesn’t look like a Samoyed and at the same time doesn’t have the “old-style look” like my husband likes.  I brought a print out of the drawing to the folks who make the magnets and the next morning I had two magnets with my kennel name on them with a American Eskimo on it… not a Samoyed or Kees… I know they kept that image because I am going to have another one made.

 

In closing, educating the public should be also high on our list of where we are going with the breed... When people call me for puppies, I ask if they have ever had the breed before, and if not, I ask why they want an eskie… when they say they have a neighbor that has one, my next question is where did your neighbor get their dog… if they tell me a pet store, or if they tell they have seen the breed in the pet store, I explain to them that the eskies found in pet stores are nothing like what my eskies are like… I direct the people to my web site and have them complete and submit my questionnaire… I tell them I will respond to them after I receive their submission… some people will fill out the form other won’t… those that don’t, don’t get a call back… those that do get a response and we carry on some sort of dialogue…  I also have potential owners come to the house… I want to see how they interact with the dogs and how dogs interact with them…  When I sell a puppy to a family, I feel that I have done everything in my power to inform the public about the breed… I tell them about OFA, CERF, PRA… I tell them that my dogs are DNA’d and why they are DNA’d.  Recently, I have told people about the recent Opti-gen test for PRA, and tell them that I haven’t done this testing and why I haven’t done the test…  My opinion is that the test is too expensive, that Opti-gen is price gouging… It’s just like the pharmaceutical companies… You have to buy the name brand until the company allows for a generic brand, but in the case of this test, I don’t think we are going to see that happening… at least not in my lifetime…

 

Now of course with the above said, many of the breeders on this list might not go through this process and I have no problem with this at all… You have had the breed many many years and you can get a feel for these things… though I have had the breed for 11 years, it is only recently that have I been breeding and I want to make sure that I place puppies in the right home, so my puppies are typically sold to families in the Northeast, though I did sell a puppy to someone in the Charlottsburg, Virginia area… They actually came to my house 3 times!  They are very pleased with their puppy… I don’t have that many puppies out there, but I do hope the puppies that I have out there are best puppies that I can produce, and of course hope to produce a better puppy…

 

I think breeders need to share their information, and as a newbie to breeding, I am finding some breeders are more will to share information than others and this is sad to me that not ALL breeders are willing to do this…It’s my personal opinion that this is what will eventually hurt our breed because we won’t be on the same page… Yes, this is naďve…

 

In final closing… I wish all best wishes in your individual breeding programs, but remember this… we do this because we love this wonderful and it’s “for the betterment of the breed!”

SallyEllen R. Schilling

Secretary, AEDCONE"
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 09:05:29 AM »

and what not to breed:

"   As too what we should breed away from,....I think dogs that are too light of bone, Eskies should have adequate bone for their size, not clumsy, but adequate (enough). A dog without strong bones could not work a farm efficiently without the possibility of breaking a bone easily.

Shoulders,...we must pay attention to the shoulders. Shoulders are to be well laid back, without this the dog cannot have the proper reach in the forequarter. Without reach, you have a poor jumper, slow dog, dog that tires easily, and a dog that cannot make sharp, quick turns.

Necks....we must not forget the necks. We have too many dogs with heads sitting on top of the withers. Just because there is a large ruff there, it doesn't mean that the neck isn't important. The dog must have a neck that is of medium length and be arched. The arch of the neck is very important to the balance of the dog.

Drive in the rear, we need to breed dogs that have good driving rears. When moving from the side, the rear foot is placed in almost the same position that the front foot is picked up from. There should not be a space between the front and rear foot. The rear leg should be extended fully. The dog should cover a great amount of ground with the least amount of effort.

Croups,....croup should have a gentle slope, not be flat.
Type...We must breed for a Nordic type dog. This means that when the dog has its mouth open (as in panting), the lip corners come to the point of the outer corner of the eye, no further. Any further the dog looses the Nordic look and is showing "too much mouth". Also, with the mouth open, you should never see the upper teeth.

Temperament, Very important. We must breed dogs with stable temperaments, that are happy and outgoing dogs. I always have known that Eskies have a herding instinct and do my best to keep that instinct within my dogs. I do not want to loose this, this trait is part of the essence of our breed, part of what makes an Eskie an Eskie. Herding instinct is actually a "controlled" prey drive. This is why many Eskies are excellent hunters. Granted, very few dogs with a herding instinct will herd properly without training, but the instinct, the prey drive is there. Not all Eskies have a herding instinct, just as not all Aussies, or Border Collies are great herders.
I think basically when breeding, we need to understand our breed, know what it is, and what it isn't. We must breed to the standard, not to just our personal likes."
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


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Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 09:09:01 AM »

"To follow onto the really good posts on this topic so far...

In addition to what's been said, I think Eskies are problem solvers
for one thing. I watched Scandal "teach" her daughters how to jump
from floor to table-top to hutch in order to get the treats. She
would do it, then nudge her daughter toward the chair. This went on
for about a half hour until Rumor followed mom's guidance. (Then I
gave them each one treat and moved the bin elsewhere). (Keith can
tell you about Mozart opening the fridge to get the steak).

Second, I think Eskies have a more developed sense of humor than most
other breeds. It's not just the grinning and playing but I honestly
think they like to play jokes on each other and their people.

KathyK"
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


My alter ego, my heart
Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
Saint Mom
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 01:03:53 PM »

Hey Mary...... next time try to make it longer..... I took my lunch hour to get through this  Big Grin  Big Grin

Very interesting.... I even printed for future quick references... (not to be given out but for me only).

Of course I needed to comment heuh:

He should be highly energetic and self motivated and play well with other dogs, especially his "pack" if the owner has more than one (which is likely ).  

Of course we all know this is call the MES disease and I had to catch it like some of us here!!!!  Tongue

Can we get to see a pic of Aleutian Eyes aks Shemya…. Only really heard so far from Raven?

We too get generally the comment our dogs “oh…. Look at the cute baby samoyed! Or white spitz, or white pom…. Or we have just one like this but different color (ie. Rusty, Caramel, etc.) Rarely hear a comment that someone knows it’s an Eskie. When we say they are Eskies…. We do get questions and end up with answers “well just the same anyway” Geez. And it’s not always possible to describe the breeds in 30 seconds on streets while walking.

I wanna “real” eskie magnet too  Cool

Next time can you deliver me a baby in Montreal?  Pleased Saved me all the issues I needed to solve with Nuuk and cost would be just the same at this point  Big Grin

I now know why you don’t have tons of babies. Sex Camp for Ra is just a fun and play game….. she needs to get serious about it if she wants the greenies….. She has to know that NILIF  Big Grin

As you know, I own Sierra’s Aleutian Eyes aka Shemya… I found her on my kitchen island! I have to this day been unable to figure out how she did this little feat.    
Put a combination of a cat and a steak and you got your answer  Big Grin

But seriously, thanks for taking the time to write this out. Always good to learn more on a job and how much it takes to get there!

Unfortunately, it took the loss of a great dog for us to get to know an eskie. Yes we miss our collie who passed away last June. But our 2 eskie babies sure enlighten our darkest days (although some days Bonnie could be sent home with Clyde)  Big Grin We have no time to be bored with them!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2004, 01:05:04 PM by Saint Mom » Logged

Helene-Saint mom
eskieagilitygal
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 01:32:25 PM »

Quote
I wanna “real” eskie magnet too


ME TOO!!!

Quote
I found her on my kitchen island! I have to this day been unable to figure out how she did this little feat.
'

I have a full size counter/table in my basement, which I use to brush Winston... I normally have him jump in the chair and then the table since it is so tall.... just the other day, I got the brush out and started walking towards the counter/table and Winston just ran and jumped straight up on it... effortlessly.  I was shocked, as I did not think he could jump that high... it was about 32" (1 meter) high.    I have seen him clear 24"  jumps without a problem but 8" is a big difference.... now I'm wondering just how high he can jump.   I'm just happy he has not gotten the idea to do this in the kitchen to get the cat food off the counter.... I'll have to start placing it on the refrig.
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EskieMa
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 03:05:19 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by eskiagilitygal
   I'm just happy he has not gotten the idea to do this in the kitchen to get the cat food off the counter.... I'll have to start placing it on the refrig.



     What you do not know about Winston, I am not going to tell you. You just haven't figured out those footprints yet?
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


My alter ego, my heart
Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 03:14:03 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by Saint Mom
Next time can you deliver me a baby in Montreal?  Pleased Saved me all the issues I needed to solve with Nuuk and cost would be just the same at this point  Big Grin


Nah, you're going to have to go to Calgary all by yur self.
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


My alter ego, my heart
Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
EskieMa
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 03:18:37 PM »

I think what I am going to do under this section is post several breeders websites. No endorsements.   Might take me awhile though - it usually does. Pleased
Mary
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Mary in the Northern Neck of VA


My alter ego, my heart
Ch. Sierra Striking Raven, CGC, TDI, TT
female Standard  2/3/96 - 2/12/10
 
wokajod
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 03:49:03 PM »

Thanks Mary for the info.  I'm going to print it out to keep as a reference.

Chloe too, will get called a Sammie puppy, or someone will call her a spitz.  I saw some Sammie puppies last weekend, and Chloe doesn't look like them at all.  I think she has a foxy looking face.  

We have a someone in our 4H dog program that said they have a white spitz, I don't know if it is a real German White Spitz or and American Eskimo, I will have to see it and ask.

I want a magnet too!  Started collecting all things eskie. I want to get a bag with an eskie on it, to carry her doggie supplies to her training class;)
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Wokajod - Chloe and Beau's mommy & 2 beautiful boys
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 09:27:06 PM »

I want a doggie bag too..... Michael!!!! Can you start a collection that would go with the booties????  Big Grin
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