What to do about peeing in crate

[maureenc]

If you take him out to potty, and he doesn't. Then bring him back in and put him back in his crate and take him out 10 minutes later.

I understood this, don't worry. If he doesn't potty, I set the wind up kitchen timer for 10 - 15 and take him out again.

He still pees/poos in the crate pretty regularly (once a day or more)

When I'm playing with/watching him, he tells me he has to go out and everything is fine. But if he's in the crate, he just lets it go and howls for the cleaning service.

I rarely have him in there for more than an hour (I have 1 hour consultation appts with customers in my home. They all want to meet him, but half the time I go to get him after our hour is up and he's a smelly mess...)

How do you spend all day watching the dog and still work? I do have a mortgage to pay and a business to run...

I just physically can't pay attention to him 24/7 - I have to take a shower, meet with customers, check email, potty myself, etc. But when I put him in that crate, he pees or poos. And fingerpaints. (ech)

I'm really at wits end.

Turned out he did have a UTI. I took him in shortly after my original post (Thank you eskienoel !), & we got that cleared up, & it cut down on the frequency - now he's only covered in pee/poo once a day or so... instead of several times.

[maureenc]

And forgot to mention that I've implemented a lot of the suggestions from all of you so thank you so much - when I find him pee soaked, I set the timer for 30 minutes and let him be miserable for a bit before cleaning him up.

(I still have to wash him though - just can't stand the urine smell on his fur)

Meticulously cleaning the crate with Nature's Miracle

And we have limited water - the vet said at least every two hours he has to be watered though - not just at meals/playtime (playtime is all day though at this point...)

We do great as long as I'm focused on him, and he gets to tell when we go out.

But once I put him in that crate... I was starting to think it might be separation anxiety, but he doesn't pee if I leave him alone in the kitchen - so I can do this for 10 minutes or so but any longer and he's found some other sort of trouble to get into... (chewed a cabinet or a floor tile - fortunately cabinets are "shabby chic" and floor tiles are just peel n stick - ha ha)

I'm starting to feel imprisoned by the egg timer.

Walks do seem to be helping though (vet said I should do walks_ - he has a bit less energy and is easier to manage...

[jennyb]

Yup, tire that puppy out!  Tired dogs are well behaved dogs.  And don't tire him out only physically, tire out his brain too.  Challenge him mentally with short training sessions.

If the crate isn't working, and the kitchen isn't safe, have you thought about an xpen?  It works well for our two.  And the way an xpen is constructed, it allows us to shape the pen the way we want and shrink it as we want it.

[sanddollar_78240]

Grasping at straws, here, but all I got. Would it be possible to confine him to the kitchen or the bathroom for a short while when Y'All are home? If so, maybe if you put his water bowl on a wee pad, it would help (he may be too old/ big for this to work). Lina potty trained herself when she was ridiculously young, but it was because she'd drink, take a few steps & sprinkle.
 Or what about a wrap?

[sanddollar_78240]

Just found something that might help, too. KV Vet (kvpet.com) has something called Dry Fur. They're crate liners & a little pricey, but might help in a pinch. Price range is $6.99 for 19.5 x 12.5 up to 8.99 for 24.5 x 17.25. Three sizes (so a size in between those, too) & come in a pkg of 2.

[Yukon]

Try an ex pen in an area where he's not near anything chewy. And if he is chewing your floors, you can get mats/floors for ex pens, too.

He should be able to hold it for at least 2-3 hours at a time.  You mentioned that his playtime is "all day" -- what is his daily routine?  Do you have him on a set schedule (mealtimes, walks, potty times, playtimes, and naps) all at the same times every day?  If not, try that.  Put away the egg timer, and just use a clock -- write down a schedule that provides for short periods during the day when you will walk him, play with him, feed him, etc.  Pretend that you have to leave for work, and you're simply not available other times.  You walk him, you leave, you come back 2-3 hours later for his next walk.  If he pottied, just clean it up, take him out and praise like crazy for pottying outside.  Then vigorous playtime.  Then walk, then nap.   Dogs really thrive on routine and consistency. He should be able to start anticipating when his next walk/meal/playtime will be and adjust accordingly.  He also needs lots of sleep still at his age, so he needs alone/quiet time to nap.  Yukon used to get all riled up and cranky when he was overtired.  That was when he would protest most vigorously that he did NOT need a nap in his crate... 

Also -- if he is still pottying in the crate, you might want to do a follow up visit with the vet to make sure the UTI is cleared up.  And cut back on the amount, if not the frequency, of water.

[maureenc]

Well, I think he has finally made the connection between the action of relieving himself and "that yucky stuff that's all around my feet so I have to howl for the cleanup crew".

Banner - I think leaving him in the mess to be miserable for awhile did the trick!

We have now gone for 4 whole days/nights without crate peeing / pooping. Hurrah!

Thank you everyone for your encouragement and wisdom!!!!

[Yukon]

We have now gone for 4 whole days/nights without crate peeing / pooping. Hurrah!

YAY!!!!

[jennyb]

Yeah!!!!

He's still a baby so don't be surprised if there are a few more crate accidents. 

[Eskielvr]

- when I find him pee soaked, I set the timer for 30 minutes and let him be miserable for a bit before cleaning him up.

That's just cruel, and it doesn't teach him anything as he doesn't understand. Same as people who think shoving their noses in it does anything, or hitting them with a newspaper. Dogs don't reason like we do and he doesn't equate laying in pee for half an hour to his actions of peeing in it.

If you take him out and he doesn't pee, clip a leash to him on one end, and around you with the other. Everywhere you go, he goes. You watch him and if he starts to go you can catch him in the act, give a gentle "No", and take him out again.

[maureenc]

This reply really hurt my feelings - I was not shoving his nose in it, or it's not like I'm pouring it all over him.... He was peeing on himself. Big difference.

No one appreciates being called cruel.

So I went away from the forum for awhile, intending to cool down about it - but I came back and this reply still really stings.

What's even worse, is he still pees in the crate. He does ok in the house, but not the crate.

I've tried pens, dog runs, etc. He still ends up covered in pee and poo. He just walks right through it outside - if there is a pile of poop anywhere, he WILL find it and step in it.

Ever since I first brought him home from the breeder, he has never had an aversion to his own wastes.  I don't know if this is possible to teach?

And please don't tell me it's because I'm "CRUEL" and don't clean my dog's mess up fast enough - even if I just leave him in the run for an hour or two, he has pooped and worked everything into a paste.

I really don't know what to do. My vet has a dog with the same problem - but hers is a rescue.

Mine was from a really good breeder. But he did this from the first day I brought him home.

[maureenc]

Oh and more clarification - we had been having him sleep in our bedroom for 3 months, and he never peed or pooped in there at night.

Then hubby had trouble breathing and was diagnosed with allergies - doc said no dog in bedroom.

So back to the crate, and back to peeing/pooping every night.

The dog run trouble has never subsided. He is just a mess when I take him out, even if it's only been a couple of hours.

This makes me think it's all due to his (VERY severe) separation anxiety.

[BamaEskies]

This reply really hurt my feelings - I was not shoving his nose in it, or it's not like I'm pouring it all over him.... He was peeing on himself. Big difference.

No one appreciates being called cruel.

So I went away from the forum for awhile, intending to cool down about it - but I came back and this reply still really stings.

You're here and trying to get help for you and your dog, so you're obviously not cruel. Just concentrate on all the positive advice and comments you received. You shouldn't let one person run you off since you know there is one in every group. Eskielvr can be very blunt and has been known to offend many people here, but those of us who know her know that that is just how she is. Right, Melissa? 

[JimmyThy]

FYI - Melissa (eskielvr) is no longer on this board.

Maureen, I'm sorry to hear about your continuing issues w/ the crate and his separation anxiety. That has to be stressful for everyone. Andrea is right - when dealing with a community of people, you're bound to run into some who rub you the wrong way, intentionally or not. I've found that following that same advice of just focusing on the positive help and advice you receive is the best way to deal with these incidents. Fortunately, I've also found that this board has had much fewer of those incidents than others, which is why I continue coming

That said, I'm not sure how to help you with your situation. Is there a behaviorist you can get help from who can really guide you with this? Sometimes, it really helps to have someone right there watching us, directing us on some details we may have missed that could really turn the situation around.

Please keep us updated. We'd all love to be able to help each other when we can!

[BamaEskies]

FYI - Melissa (eskielvr) is no longer on this board.

I learn something new every day!

Thy, I introduced you to this forum years ago, and I see that you've surpassed me in postings! Wow!  It's hard for me to post much during the school year since the workload and discipline problems increase every year. Plus, more dogs equal less time for forums! 

[Kathy]

Hi Maureen, I'm glad you're back!

Here's what I would do if this were happening with one of my dogs. It might be a lot of work and take a lot of attention, but the problem is pretty ingrained and I don't think there is an easy cure.

I think your dog has become "immune" to urine and feces. It doesn't bother him to be dirty or wet, and it might even have made things worse when you kept the belly band on him when it was wet. Instead of being miserable, he might have just accepted it as the way things are. You pee, and you get wet. Oh well.

I would try to keep him as clean and dry as possible so he learns that THAT is the way to be.  Instead of leaving him out in a dog run for an hour or two, I'd take him on leash to a certain spot in the yard where you want him to go (preferably when you think he has to go). Keep walking him around until he goes, and start praising as soon as he starts going. When he's finished, have a HUGE puppy party, treat treat treat, praise praise praise, play play play. The neighbors should think you are crazy. If he pooped, immediately pick it up. Just carry plastic bags in your pocket and use one like a glove over your hand, then turn it inside out and tie it closed.

Once he has pooped, then he can be free to be unsupervised either in your house, in his crate, or in his dog run.  Try to get him on a schedule so he poops at the same times every day. If you can't walk him around the yard until he goes, then check him in his pen every 5-10 minutes so you can clean up the poop right after he goes. But this won't get the results you want, I don't think.

As for peeing in his crate, that is harder because he has become habituated to it.  If there is bedding in there, take it out. Again, make sure he pees before going in his crate. Reward every single time he pees outside. My 8-year-old Snowpups still get treats occasionally for going potty just to reinforce this behavior.  Limit his access to water for a few hours before putting him in the crate and make sure he potties before going in. Again, big puppy party for going outside!

I hope some of this helps. I don't think there is an easy solution, but if you work at it and develop a schedule that will break the cycle, I think you'll have success.

Let us know how you are doing.

[Paula N.]

Thank heavens I learned I don't have the only Eskie who fakes peeing for treats.

Actually I was trying to break Angel of her afternoon walk (read food patrol) and I thought she ought to pee at least once between morning walk and evening walk (she refuses to use the backyard  to either pee or poop).  She must have the biggest bladder in the dog-world as she can go many long hours without going, but still ...  Afternoon temperatures here run 90+ for months at a time and I thought I should get her to pee at least once between official walks.

So I would take her out in the afternoon in the back yard, and after much urging she would consent to pee.  Then we'd go back in the house and I'd reward her with peanuts.  BIG MISTAKE!  As you all must know, both my girls are crazy for peanuts.  Now every night, Angel figures she didn't get enough peanuts after supper, so she goes to the door, goes outside, and quickly comes back, sure she is going to get more peanuts.  (She doesn't.)  She won't give up trying though.

These Eskies are way too smart for their own good!
 

[Kathy]

Paula, that's funny! Kola is the same way with the fake peeing.  He would run out, lift his leg for a millisecond and come running back for his treat.  Hah!  I'm wise to your ways!  I'd send him back out for a "real" one!

[BamaEskies]

Thank heavens I learned I don't have the only Eskie who fakes peeing for treats.

These Eskies are way too smart for their own good!
 

Cheyenne too!!!!!

[maureenc]

That is the problem - he was "habituated" from the day I brought him home. I knew he was "different" from any dog I've ever had before.

Most dogs, if they pee or poop in the crate, will lay on the other side of the crate, trying to avoid it. He would be COVERED.

It has never gotten better.

I have always cleaned him very thourougly, as quickly as I can (with the exception of the "CRUEL" 30 minute timer - only did this 3 or 4 times). He is always clean and dry - even when I have to bathe him 5-6 times a week.

I need somehow to teach him to stay out of his poop. I'm desperate.

He can go all night no problem if I'm with him. He can be unsupervised in the house with no accidents, as long as I'm in the house with him.

I do make him poop/pee before putting him in the run or the crate. He does it on command, no problem.

Then the separation anxiety just seems to squeeze a little more out of him.

It's never much - just a little tiny turd - but it's worked all into the concrete or crate, and laid in so it's all over his belly and all through his tail. It's so gross.

I need to be able to leave him when I need to go to the store, or to an appointment. You can't take them everywhere or supervise them 24 hours a day... there are times when they need to be alone.

I have to rush through every appointment - run through the grocery store - hurry hurry hurry or the dog will be panicking and crapping all over himself and I'll have to take 2 hours to wash and dry him - again. My life is out of control.

Obviously I'm very very attached to him and can't bear the thought of giving him up. But I am also getting very resentful and that isn't healthy for either of us.

I have never had this problem with another animal. I've potty trained 5 other dogs - I really don't need advice about how to potty train a dog... I need to know how to teach him to stay out of his poop.

Do your dogs walk through their own poop?

He will poop, then go back to pee, and walk right through it like it's nothing. Pees all over his own feet, standing in the puddle. When he was a tiny pup, he would poop and then sit right in it. I had never seen anything like it.

I'm beginning to wonder if he just has a screw loose...

[NordicWhispers]

sometimes it just depends on the dog, Maureen.  I have had some pups who didn't seem to give a rip.  With time, determination, and more maturity it has always gotten better.

I just had a year old puppy returned to me for this very purpose.  The owner had just had enough and wasn't willing to deal with anymore so I commend you for seeking advice to help solve the problems.    I don't have any quick fixes for you.  A lot just depends on the dog.  We have noticed that several things have helped situations like this but nothing has been a quick fix.

Type of crate sometimes can be an issue.  Sometimes dogs have issues with the wire crate vs the plastice ones because the plastic feels more like a den.  If you do have a wire crate, cover it with a towel or blanket to make it nice and cozy.

Other animals can be helpful too.  We found the little girl to be much more comforted by being crated to another dog.  This really helped our little girl.

We did shorts spurts in the crate.  Any positive time was huge and in turn we have made a big deal over.  We've always cleaned up as soon as we were made aware of it or noticed it.  Because it is my choice to put them in a crate at times, I don't feel I'm being fair if I expect them to sit in it.  These are just my thoughts and choices and I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree with me.  I won't judge anyone on the aspect of a training technique being cruel or not because most of us are trying to do the best we can and use different techniques to solve problems.  Try not to take peoples comments personally as some have very strong opinions in how dogs are trained.

Neva was one who had very big issues about going in her crate for the first year or so.  She finally got with the program and now is finatically clean.  She doesn't like being dirty.  Her brother, Victor is a pain when it comes to his crate.  Although he doesn't mess it, he throws a temper tantrum by barking, howling, and dancing from side to side. 

I also make a very big deal at the mess but never at the dog.  I stomp me feet to go get the cleaning supplies and rags and mutter all the way through cleaning as to how stinky and yucky it is.  Never, never, never at the dog but always the mess.  The pups always come to see what the hub bub is all about and watch me very intently and are quite enthralled by me verbally chastising their mess.

Anyhow try to give it time.  It will get better.  Happy Thanksgiving.

[Paula N.]

O Gosh - I really can understand the hard time you are having!  Hope something good happens for you - and soon.

Sweet Pea came really from a shelter (even though I bought her from a person who had her for a whole week).   Don't know the circumstances of her early life, but I bought her two crates since she has dewclaws on all four feet, and at first I was afraid she might catch one of them on a wire crate.  I also bought a plastic one for her to ride in in the car.  It wasn't until I bought her a fleece crate mat that she accepted the plastic crate.

But get this - I'd crate her in the wire one (complete with material to cover, to make it more den-like) when I had to go somewhere.  This wire crate was in the bedroom because Angel and she wanted to sleep in the same room as me.  As soon as Sweet Pea realized that I was going somewhere and was going to put her in the wire crate, she would race into the bedroom and hide behind a chair.  I thought - o.k. - I won't make you get in the crate.  Besides the door into the bathroom would be open, and that has a tile floor, and if there was going to be an accident, I thought she would go in there.

So far, in over 2 years, there have been no accidents and unless I had workmen coming into the house, I don't put SP in the crate and shut the door.  When I do, though, she will cry unless I close the bedroom door.  When I close that door, she keeps quiet.  She seems to know that I will let her out as soon as the workmen are gone.  Might this be some way out of your predicament?  It sounds as if your pup does have some control.  Maybe if you didn't insist on the crate (but made him stay in a closed-off room) it might be a "deal" he could live with.  This thread is so long, maybe I missed something along the way that would say this couldn't work, but I just throw it out in case it might help.

[BamaEskies]

Do your dogs walk through their own poop?

He will poop, then go back to pee, and walk right through it like it's nothing. Pees all over his own feet, standing in the puddle. When he was a tiny pup, he would poop and then sit right in it. I had never seen anything like it.

I'm beginning to wonder if he just has a screw loose...

Well, it could be worse. If I don't watch Cheyenne, she'll eat hers "fresh from the factory."

What about having him wear a diaper? We have to put a diaper (male wrap) on Tecumseh when we leave because he likes to mark things.

[eskieagilitygal]

If it's anxiety, try T-Touch Therapy.  Wrap him prior to placing him in the crate.  You can use Ace bandages, T-shirt and high end specialty pet stores also sell anxeity jackets.  May be able to find them on-line.  You can find the T-Touch exercises and info on how it works, on-line.

When I know a storm is coming I put Taffee in a T-shirt and it helps.

Also...if me..I'd put him in a x-pen instead of a crate or just baby gating off a room, so he does not feel so confined/trapped

Inside the X-pen or room, just place a small crate with his bedding without the door...his den that he can go to.  Also placing things in the crate/pen that smell like you or his favorite person will also help.  Wear a old T-Shirt to bed and leave that with him daily to help him through his seperation anxeity.

[Geno]

The only other thought I had was to put him in the crate with the door open. You'll have to sit there and block him from coming out. Eventually he'll get the idea and lay down and relax. Then you can allow him out. Do this as often as you can, and increase the time. Then eventually you can wait for him to relax then close the door but stay right there. Then eventually move away but within sight. Then out of sight for 5 min, then 10 min, etc...

Also, if a crate is too big, it can be an issue. Most dogs will poop at one end and laydown at the other end in a crate that's too big.

Good luck and please keep us informed.

Geno